Sunday, May 09, 2010
Going up the 23 candles
I slept for somewhere around 24 hours last night, and felt _considerably_ refreshed. Really very well indeed. I was up and breakfasted in time for the 9am service at Christ Church Saint Laurence. It's about 1 and half kilometres from the hotel, so was a pleasant walk. I'd put my clerical shirt and collar on, as Fr Adrian (with whom I'd been in touch via email) had said to make myself known once I arrived. I did, was made welcome, and was introduced to a member of congregation who chatted while we waited for the service to begin. I'd got confused, and had thought that the 0900 service was a Sung Eucharist, but, instead, it was "Low Mass". This, the fact that everyone called me "Father", and the lady altar dedicated to Our Lady of Walsingham, should have been enough to clue me in that I was in for something higher than I'm used to, but bar the birettas on all the clergy (red pom-pom for the rector, black for the others), it was fairly standard fare from my point of view. During coffee afterwards, I discovered that the next service was with the choir, and as they were singing some rather nice music (a mass setting by Victoria), I thought I'd stay for the 1030, as well.This was High Mass, and really quite high. Birettas again, of course, lashings of incense, copious genuflection and the gospel canted, which I'd not experienced before. I'd been informed before my arrival that vestments are banned in the Sydney diocese, but apparently it's _chasubles_ that are banned. This means that stoles, dalmatics, birettas and copes are just fine. It was jolly nice, and I went for drinks and lunch with the choir in the pub afterwards. They also invited me to evensong at 1830, which I decided I'd get to if I was still vertical (in danger owing to jetlag, not alcohol consumption, you'll understand), as they were to sing Leighton's Mag. & Nunc Coll. Mag., which I've not heard for ages.
So, back to the hotel via a yarn shop (possum:merino mix is _very_ soft), and then footled and called Moo and the girls. Footled some more, then headed off to Paddy's market. Despite the name, this is a very strongly Chinese market, just opposite Sydney's Chinatown. In fact, the whole area reminded me strongly of Singapore: lots of Chinese people, lots of Chinese being spoken, but signs in English and Chinese, and just a Chinese feel to how shops are laid out. And then to evensong.
I also enjoyed evensong very much (the choir did a good job of the Leighton), and discovered what the clergy and altar party are _supposed_ to do during the singing of the Magnificat. They're supposed to cense things. The altar. The Paschal Candle. Each other (individually), the choir, the people, the lot. Marvellous (if a little distracting from the main event: the music). But I realised, as I looked at the order of service, that it was going to be followed by a Service of Benediction.
It was my first experience of a Service of Benediction, and is likely to be my last. There was too much Marian devotion for me, but worse was the whole reverencing the Host. In a monstrance. And the presiding priest put on a lovely little shawl to do the monstrance bit. Apparently it's called a "Humeral Veil". I didn't even know these things existed. There were 16 candles on the altar, 6 behind it, and the Paschal candle all lit. What an education. Anyway, not my cup of tea, but fair enough if you like heresy, I guess.
However, I did discover a useful piece of information: why you need both a deacon and a sub-deacon. It's so that they can waft around the celebrant holding his cope out like a pair of wings.
I've had a lovely day, met some great people, listened to some fantastic music, and thoroughly enjoyed myself. I even bought a book called "Rescuing Sex from the Christians" at the church bookshop. You can't lose with a title like that, can you?
Labels: catholicism, church, communion
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I'd be interested to hear more theological detail on your dislike of reverencing the Host. The Catholic view, as I understand it, is quite simple. Since the Host is Our Lord, of course it is entitled to reverence. So even in our church we will make a gesture of respect when opening the aumbry.
I worry about it because, for me, it's idolatry. You're reverencing a _thing_, not Christ. My theology of the sacrament of communion, the more I think about it, rests in the process of consecration, celebration and reception. The host - and the wine - are elements which, though special, are not worthy of worship in and of themselves. The are special because of their place in the communing, not because of some "magic" performed on the.
That doesn't mean that I feel that consecrated bread and wine are not special. They are set aside so that this communion - the process of coming to Christ and celebrating his sacrifice and resurrection for us - can take place at times and places when a priest is not available, or when the longer forms of service are not appropriate.
This is very interesting to me, and I'm glad you brought me up on it. I knew you'd have _something_ to say, and I'd be interested in your responses.
That doesn't mean that I feel that consecrated bread and wine are not special. They are set aside so that this communion - the process of coming to Christ and celebrating his sacrifice and resurrection for us - can take place at times and places when a priest is not available, or when the longer forms of service are not appropriate.
This is very interesting to me, and I'm glad you brought me up on it. I knew you'd have _something_ to say, and I'd be interested in your responses.
"The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them"
My position is higher than the church in which I serve, and lower than G's.
So far I haven't managed to connect with reverencing the host, but found my heart 'strangely warmed' when I saw a black marble staue of Mary in Rome, and experienced the feminine in the divine through that encounter. Which is not to say that I anticipate being invaded my the need to perform Marian devotions at any time in the near future.
God has ways of reaching us that we cannot know, so watch this space.
My position is higher than the church in which I serve, and lower than G's.
So far I haven't managed to connect with reverencing the host, but found my heart 'strangely warmed' when I saw a black marble staue of Mary in Rome, and experienced the feminine in the divine through that encounter. Which is not to say that I anticipate being invaded my the need to perform Marian devotions at any time in the near future.
God has ways of reaching us that we cannot know, so watch this space.
Well it will be of no real surprise to any of you that I come in very low church on this one. I believe that the bread and wine used at the Lords supper are symbols to help us to connect with something more mysterious. The word "host" has no real place in Methodist terminology, and of course we don't have anything like an aumbry.
I agree with Mike that the elements are special because of their place in the communing, not because of some "magic" performed on them. I do believe that Christ becomes present in a special way through the elements but that it is a spiritual presence and nothing happens to the bread or the wine. This is worked out in Methodist practice by the fact that in most ( and I say most because some Wesleyans are very high church) churches the table ( not altar) is covered at the beginning of the service with a white cloth, the elements are prepared during the prayers of offering and consecration and then covered again at the end, we don't consume anything left because we don't believe that anything has happened to the elements themselves, the union is in the reception and it is mystical.
I dislike reverencing the host, because like Mike I think it is idolatrous, though I may not use so strong a word, but I believe that I would be making something out of nothing ....
As for Marian devotions, I can't go there either, although I am a strong believer of the feminine divine I believe we encounter Her in God, through her mother "side", and through the Holy Spirit, but that God is not gendered, simply that gender helps us to understand.
I do think Mary has a place in our tradition, but is not to be venerated!
I agree with Mike that the elements are special because of their place in the communing, not because of some "magic" performed on them. I do believe that Christ becomes present in a special way through the elements but that it is a spiritual presence and nothing happens to the bread or the wine. This is worked out in Methodist practice by the fact that in most ( and I say most because some Wesleyans are very high church) churches the table ( not altar) is covered at the beginning of the service with a white cloth, the elements are prepared during the prayers of offering and consecration and then covered again at the end, we don't consume anything left because we don't believe that anything has happened to the elements themselves, the union is in the reception and it is mystical.
I dislike reverencing the host, because like Mike I think it is idolatrous, though I may not use so strong a word, but I believe that I would be making something out of nothing ....
As for Marian devotions, I can't go there either, although I am a strong believer of the feminine divine I believe we encounter Her in God, through her mother "side", and through the Holy Spirit, but that God is not gendered, simply that gender helps us to understand.
I do think Mary has a place in our tradition, but is not to be venerated!
as for dressing up clothes, :-) simple clerical shirt and ordinary jacket will do just fine for most ocassions.
BTW both of my communion services yesterday were completely extempore!
BTW both of my communion services yesterday were completely extempore!
Perhaps you could expand your thoughts a bit, Mike, by commenting on when you bow towards the altar. What are you doing there?
Now I'm sure we've had conversations about the difference between reverence, veneration and worship before on this blog.
As a very evangelical, low church borderline charismatic/conservative 19 year-old (and that's quite enough labels for anyone) I attended a service of Benediction with a very healthy degree of suspicion - I was convinced I would hate it and it would be a load of idolatrous rubbish.
During that service, at the moment of the elevation of the host I had an incredibly powerful experience of God which has led not only to my exploring and happily residing within the Catholic tradition of the Church of England, but also seeking and having the immense privilege of Ordination to the Priesthood.
Frankly at the time I didn't care one bit whether Christ was present in the host through transubstantiation, consubstantiation, or whether it was just a wafer and Christ was present in some other form, I did the only thing I could do and got down on the floor and worshipped him.
Strangely enough, since then Benediction has not become a major part of my spirituality, I do not attend regularly and would probably not feel I had missed out if I never attended again. But it has left me with a deep and unshakeable recognition that across the breadth of Christian tradition from the simple table with the crust of bread to the priest with humeral veil, yards of lace and numerous candles (they used to have 80 on the altar at St. Silas, Kentish Town) there is a working out of God's purposes which goes far beyond our attempts to establish neat and tidy theologies.
However, I do believe that theology is vitally important and for me I guess the problem with Benediction is the business of "looking at" rather than "holding". In communion the maker of heaven and earth is placed into the hands of his creation, at benediction we sit, or kneel and stare at him and that somehow feels a little odd.
In other words I find benediction problematic, it's odd and uncomfortable and difficult to justify theologically, but it's also holy and precious and powerful. I glad it's there as a part of the wonderous variety of our Church, I just don't feel the need to be a part of it all that often.
As a very evangelical, low church borderline charismatic/conservative 19 year-old (and that's quite enough labels for anyone) I attended a service of Benediction with a very healthy degree of suspicion - I was convinced I would hate it and it would be a load of idolatrous rubbish.
During that service, at the moment of the elevation of the host I had an incredibly powerful experience of God which has led not only to my exploring and happily residing within the Catholic tradition of the Church of England, but also seeking and having the immense privilege of Ordination to the Priesthood.
Frankly at the time I didn't care one bit whether Christ was present in the host through transubstantiation, consubstantiation, or whether it was just a wafer and Christ was present in some other form, I did the only thing I could do and got down on the floor and worshipped him.
Strangely enough, since then Benediction has not become a major part of my spirituality, I do not attend regularly and would probably not feel I had missed out if I never attended again. But it has left me with a deep and unshakeable recognition that across the breadth of Christian tradition from the simple table with the crust of bread to the priest with humeral veil, yards of lace and numerous candles (they used to have 80 on the altar at St. Silas, Kentish Town) there is a working out of God's purposes which goes far beyond our attempts to establish neat and tidy theologies.
However, I do believe that theology is vitally important and for me I guess the problem with Benediction is the business of "looking at" rather than "holding". In communion the maker of heaven and earth is placed into the hands of his creation, at benediction we sit, or kneel and stare at him and that somehow feels a little odd.
In other words I find benediction problematic, it's odd and uncomfortable and difficult to justify theologically, but it's also holy and precious and powerful. I glad it's there as a part of the wonderous variety of our Church, I just don't feel the need to be a part of it all that often.
The uncovering and covering of the elements are marks of preparation and conclusion Helen. The emphasis being on reverance with the white cloth ( and it is always white) being a mark of purity. In essence both of the actions are declaring that these elemnts are special for they have been set aside. The covering is followed by the prayer of thanksgiving, in a sense we celebrate through it the Jesus who is with us even though we can no longer see him.
Hope that helps.
Hope that helps.
James -
I'm glad to hear a strong defense of Benediction, though I'm interested to note that you hold some concerns about the "looking at" aspect, too.
I'm remembered of a comment that ++Rowan made when someone asked him how he felt about those who didn't believe in the Real Presence: that God has a way of making things work whether we believe in them or not.
In response to Gary's question, I'm not always sure what I'm doing, but I _think_ that I'm showing respect towards the Person/Godhead represented by the cross on or behind the altar.
But then, I've found myself genuflecting at moments of high emotion, and I've even prostrated myself on a few occasions. I also feel that there's something about exposing the back of one's head which is about being as vulnerable as one can be towards God. And in a church building, I tend to focus on God's presence in the East, somewhere around the altar (where easterly!)/cross/East window.
Not entirely sure. All good discussions.
James - I'd be interested to hear from another Methodist, particularly one of a fairly high bent: any chance of a comment from Ruth?
-Mike.
I'm glad to hear a strong defense of Benediction, though I'm interested to note that you hold some concerns about the "looking at" aspect, too.
I'm remembered of a comment that ++Rowan made when someone asked him how he felt about those who didn't believe in the Real Presence: that God has a way of making things work whether we believe in them or not.
In response to Gary's question, I'm not always sure what I'm doing, but I _think_ that I'm showing respect towards the Person/Godhead represented by the cross on or behind the altar.
But then, I've found myself genuflecting at moments of high emotion, and I've even prostrated myself on a few occasions. I also feel that there's something about exposing the back of one's head which is about being as vulnerable as one can be towards God. And in a church building, I tend to focus on God's presence in the East, somewhere around the altar (where easterly!)/cross/East window.
Not entirely sure. All good discussions.
James - I'd be interested to hear from another Methodist, particularly one of a fairly high bent: any chance of a comment from Ruth?
-Mike.
"these elements are special for they have been set aside" Thanks Sally - that respect and reverence is close to my thinking, and it is why I consume them at the end of the service. I also know people who will leave the elements uncovered, like dirty plates and throw the bread into the nearest bin.
Well if it helps Helen the elements in the Chapels I serve in are never thrown away in the nearest bin, or poured down the sink. We do use bread rolls, and grape juice, the juice will probably be re-used ( and yes I know the implications etc of that, and the bread will probably be consumed by the members/ communion stewards, or in some cases fed to the birds. I remember that causing great controversey at ERMC, I was almost tarred and feathered by some, but it says something to me about creation and recreation, Jesus gave himself for the whole world, not just people, and somehow feeding crumbs to birds is an act of recognising that. He was broken that ALL might be made new....
There goes the cat among the pigeons!
There goes the cat among the pigeons!
But will the cat eat the consecrated bread whilst it is among the pigeons?
It's not the birds eating the consecrated bread which worries me, it's the throwing it on the floor so that the birds can eat it which I can't handle.
Mike - I'll see if I can get Ruth to add her grist to the mill.
It's not the birds eating the consecrated bread which worries me, it's the throwing it on the floor so that the birds can eat it which I can't handle.
Mike - I'll see if I can get Ruth to add her grist to the mill.
" I _think_ that I'm showing respect towards the Person/Godhead represented by the cross on or behind the altar." but you wouldn't show the same respect to the bread, which above all things represents that Person and Godhead in His humanity?
:-) James that is why it goes on the bird table!
I have to say Gary although your comment wasn't in response to anything I said, that the word "represents" is the key here, and I guess we all see that representation in different ways. This is just the kind of discussion that causes some to think we have lost the plot and others to ask questions. What I am hearing through this discussion though is a real search for integrity of practice from each one of us, that I suspect is more important than which form that practice takes. It reveals to me something of the broadness of the church that is held by a God who is so much more than we can ever imagine.
I found a place of integrity on Sunday morning by celebrating a completely extempore communion service, that two ladies came forward to recive the elements for the first time ever indicates that something was right about that celebration, as if all the elements came togehter to open a door, or, you'll love this I know, to create a tin place where heaven and earth met. This is the only way I can describe what I sense happens when we break bread and pour out wine... yes I am a liberal (ish)hippy but there you go, God loves hippies too!
I have to say Gary although your comment wasn't in response to anything I said, that the word "represents" is the key here, and I guess we all see that representation in different ways. This is just the kind of discussion that causes some to think we have lost the plot and others to ask questions. What I am hearing through this discussion though is a real search for integrity of practice from each one of us, that I suspect is more important than which form that practice takes. It reveals to me something of the broadness of the church that is held by a God who is so much more than we can ever imagine.
I found a place of integrity on Sunday morning by celebrating a completely extempore communion service, that two ladies came forward to recive the elements for the first time ever indicates that something was right about that celebration, as if all the elements came togehter to open a door, or, you'll love this I know, to create a tin place where heaven and earth met. This is the only way I can describe what I sense happens when we break bread and pour out wine... yes I am a liberal (ish)hippy but there you go, God loves hippies too!
Well, only 23 candles suggest that this is not that high a church!
Let's be clear; you do not reverence the Host at benediction.
You reverence things like crosses, altars, ikons, relics often with a bow.
We worship and adore Christ in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar - as evinced by the genuflections. Christ made present again - re-present-ed - by the Holy Spirit through the actions of the priest at the Eucharist and remaining really present in the reserved species.
Let's be clear; you do not reverence the Host at benediction.
You reverence things like crosses, altars, ikons, relics often with a bow.
We worship and adore Christ in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar - as evinced by the genuflections. Christ made present again - re-present-ed - by the Holy Spirit through the actions of the priest at the Eucharist and remaining really present in the reserved species.
Simon -
Thanks for the input. James has pushed me on this before, but could you explain the difference between the various actions/intentions, please? I'm rather fuzzy on them, and I think it might help - this discussion, if nothing else - to have a clearer distinction.
Thanks for the input. James has pushed me on this before, but could you explain the difference between the various actions/intentions, please? I'm rather fuzzy on them, and I think it might help - this discussion, if nothing else - to have a clearer distinction.
Pushed for time as I have three sermons and an application form to complete by the weekend, but briefly...
Classically, a distinction was made between latria worship and veneration due to the Gods and dulia the reverance due to venerable people.
In church terms latria is due to God alone, to the uncreated perfection of divinity. Dulia is the veneration of creation; people or things worthy of respect beacuse of what they have done or what they symbolise. Latria is absolute - God is God and worthy of all worship. Dulia can be relative - some things and people are worthy of higher degrees of reverence because of the closeness to God. The acme of this closeness to God is the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is deemed worthy of hyperdulia
Classically, a distinction was made between latria worship and veneration due to the Gods and dulia the reverance due to venerable people.
In church terms latria is due to God alone, to the uncreated perfection of divinity. Dulia is the veneration of creation; people or things worthy of respect beacuse of what they have done or what they symbolise. Latria is absolute - God is God and worthy of all worship. Dulia can be relative - some things and people are worthy of higher degrees of reverence because of the closeness to God. The acme of this closeness to God is the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is deemed worthy of hyperdulia
But as Simon rightly points out, and which is often missed, the reverence that is paid to the Mother of God is still not the worship paid to God.
Thanks as ever for picking up our slack terminology, Simon!
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Thanks as ever for picking up our slack terminology, Simon!
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